Taylor Fascia and Klass style Gutters Overflows (Weathertightness) (Leaking ceilings and windows)Deflecting overflows outside the soffitEnquire...
logoTaylor and Klass type fascia gutter systems
These are characterised by the clean exterior metal lines of the outside fascia but have the actual gutter concealed behind it.
The issues are: In heavy rains, or when the gutters become blocked, or age, or rust, or were poorly constructed, rain water overflows onto the soffits, into walls and wets framing, insulation, GIB board, flooring and carpets. If the framing is only H1 or UTKD the framing will decay as it is not treated against decay when wet.
Walls with narrow soffits, gutters that connect with walls, those with upper roofs discharging onto them and valleys pose even higher risk of leaking, wetting the framing and causing decay.
These are characterised by the clean exterior metal lines of the outside fascia but have the actual gutter concealed behind it.
The issues are: In heavy rains, or when the gutters become blocked, or age, or rust, or were poorly constructed, rain water overflows onto the soffits, into walls and wets framing, insulation, GIB board, flooring and carpets. If the framing is only H1 or UTKD the framing will decay as it is not treated against decay when wet.
Walls with narrow soffits, gutters that connect with walls, those with upper roofs discharging onto them and valleys pose even higher risk of leaking, wetting the framing and causing decay.
Taylor Fascia Guttering System Defects Photos Folder 02 Taylor Fascia Detail Leakage
Detail of original Taylor Fascia from patents office records
Problems are:
A - many have a series of holes punched through the gutter at 20 or 25. When the water level reaches this it travels down onto the soffit and into the walls wetting the framing, GIB, insulation, carpets and flooring.
B - When the gutter is blocked with debris or the rain event is extreme the water level rises and overflows inside onto the soffit and into the walls wetting the framing, GIB, insulation, carpets and flooring.
10e - The gutter lip is often separated allowing water in
10 - across the bottom to 5c often rusts out dropping water onto the soffit and into walls.
Taylor have introduced overflows fitted at 21c but often these are not cut down below 25 so leak onto the soffit before they start operating.
Leaf guards can be fitted however these make things worse as organic matter composts so moss can grow and cannot be cleaned.
Other defects are shown later.
Problems are:
A - many have a series of holes punched through the gutter at 20 or 25. When the water level reaches this it travels down onto the soffit and into the walls wetting the framing, GIB, insulation, carpets and flooring.
B - When the gutter is blocked with debris or the rain event is extreme the water level rises and overflows inside onto the soffit and into the walls wetting the framing, GIB, insulation, carpets and flooring.
10e - The gutter lip is often separated allowing water in
10 - across the bottom to 5c often rusts out dropping water onto the soffit and into walls.
Taylor have introduced overflows fitted at 21c but often these are not cut down below 25 so leak onto the soffit before they start operating.
Leaf guards can be fitted however these make things worse as organic matter composts so moss can grow and cannot be cleaned.
Other defects are shown later.
Taylor Fascia blocked and poorly installed
Taylor Fascia blocked and poorly installed.
Sure any gutter can be blocked by leaves and debris. But only Taylor and Klass direct rainwater onto soffits and wet walls. External gutters overflow safely out into the garden.
Sure any gutter could be poorly installed but only Taylor and Klass direct leaks from defects onto soffits and wet walls.
So what went wrong?
Taylor outside trim is set on an angle so when they are joined at corners are a development. This takes skill. These have been cut square so have left a gap. Rain water gets straight in.
The valley is a Vee lower in the center than the two sides. This lowers the depth of water before it overflows onto the soffits.
The valley extends into the gutter blocking it.
The leaves are Natives which don't easily decompose so fill up the gutter blocking rainwater from getting to the down pipes. Leaf guards will only make it worse as these block up the gutters even more and composting debris is difficult to clear away.
Sure any gutter can be blocked by leaves and debris. But only Taylor and Klass direct rainwater onto soffits and wet walls. External gutters overflow safely out into the garden.
Sure any gutter could be poorly installed but only Taylor and Klass direct leaks from defects onto soffits and wet walls.
So what went wrong?
Taylor outside trim is set on an angle so when they are joined at corners are a development. This takes skill. These have been cut square so have left a gap. Rain water gets straight in.
The valley is a Vee lower in the center than the two sides. This lowers the depth of water before it overflows onto the soffits.
The valley extends into the gutter blocking it.
The leaves are Natives which don't easily decompose so fill up the gutter blocking rainwater from getting to the down pipes. Leaf guards will only make it worse as these block up the gutters even more and composting debris is difficult to clear away.
Taylor Fascia blocked overflow blocked
Taylor Fascia blocked down pipe and overflow
I removed some of the leaves blocking the down pipe, overflow and gutter.
Native leaves amongst others are effective at blocking Taylor Fascia gutters. This causes rainwater to overflow onto soffits, into walls and wets framing, insulation, chip board floors, carpets and GIB linings. It can be serious when framing is only H1 or UTKD.
Time slides by and well meaning landscaping grows above the gutter line. Trees drop leaves which roofs collect and leaves get blown down into the gutters.
If this was a normal external gutter the owner would see the water cascading over the gutter onto the gardens and clean them out. With Taylor and Klass this overflowing water is dropping onto the soffits and making its way into walls doing damage.
We can blame the tree, or the owner for failing to trim the tree or to clean out the gutters. The difference though is if this was an external gutter there would be little consequence when the external gutter got filled and blocked with leaves. No damage would be done.
Not with Taylor and Klass. The gutters may need cleaning 3 or 4 times a year with deciduous trees and more so with Oak, natives and palms as these leaves don't seem to compost for years. That means a lot of muck in the gutters. But even then any small amount of leaves will send rainwater overflowing inside walls.
The overflow shown to the left of the outlet is a typical Taylor after thought add on. But its design does not deal with leaves. They block it as easily as the outlet. No use at all. This particular gutter has a rib about 2/3 the way up with overflow slots in it set below the height of the overflow cut out. That means the gutter leaks before the water level even gets to the overflow level. Its all but useless.
I removed some of the leaves blocking the down pipe, overflow and gutter.
Native leaves amongst others are effective at blocking Taylor Fascia gutters. This causes rainwater to overflow onto soffits, into walls and wets framing, insulation, chip board floors, carpets and GIB linings. It can be serious when framing is only H1 or UTKD.
Time slides by and well meaning landscaping grows above the gutter line. Trees drop leaves which roofs collect and leaves get blown down into the gutters.
If this was a normal external gutter the owner would see the water cascading over the gutter onto the gardens and clean them out. With Taylor and Klass this overflowing water is dropping onto the soffits and making its way into walls doing damage.
We can blame the tree, or the owner for failing to trim the tree or to clean out the gutters. The difference though is if this was an external gutter there would be little consequence when the external gutter got filled and blocked with leaves. No damage would be done.
Not with Taylor and Klass. The gutters may need cleaning 3 or 4 times a year with deciduous trees and more so with Oak, natives and palms as these leaves don't seem to compost for years. That means a lot of muck in the gutters. But even then any small amount of leaves will send rainwater overflowing inside walls.
The overflow shown to the left of the outlet is a typical Taylor after thought add on. But its design does not deal with leaves. They block it as easily as the outlet. No use at all. This particular gutter has a rib about 2/3 the way up with overflow slots in it set below the height of the overflow cut out. That means the gutter leaks before the water level even gets to the overflow level. Its all but useless.
Taylor Fascia gap between gutter and corner
Taylor Fascia problems
Taylor Fascia corner opened up
Metal expansion and contraction opens joint
Gutter has pulled away from Taylor casing
Poor or lack of flashing to roofing
All these defects lead to rain water dropping onto soffits and into walls. Sure maintenance will help but from the ground everything looks okay. Owners and maintenance people without any understanding of Taylor and Klass fascia defects will not even bother to inspect this so in time walls get wet and framing decays. No-one is prepared to inspect off ladders with OSH conditions so these are ignored in the name of safety.
Taylor Fascia corner opened up
Metal expansion and contraction opens joint
Gutter has pulled away from Taylor casing
Poor or lack of flashing to roofing
All these defects lead to rain water dropping onto soffits and into walls. Sure maintenance will help but from the ground everything looks okay. Owners and maintenance people without any understanding of Taylor and Klass fascia defects will not even bother to inspect this so in time walls get wet and framing decays. No-one is prepared to inspect off ladders with OSH conditions so these are ignored in the name of safety.
Taylor Fascia gutter opened
Taylor gutter separated from outer casing
Rain water enters, falls onto soffits and runs into walls and wets framing, insulation, linings, carpets and flooring.
Wetting is worse with smaller soffits.
Rain water enters, falls onto soffits and runs into walls and wets framing, insulation, linings, carpets and flooring.
Wetting is worse with smaller soffits.
Taylor Fascia gutter rusted out
Taylor Fascia gutter rusted out now leaking into home.
Issue is when products age they must be designed to deal with the consequences until repaired.
Basic engineering 101. External gutters rust as well. The difference is when they rust rainwater leaks out the bottom safely into the garden. But not so with Taylor Fascia.
This recent purchasers builders report to their credit noticed rust in the gutter and recommended a rust primer and paint. It would accordingly last another 10 years. Rust primer does not fix rust pitting that have broken through.
What is the issue?
This Taylor Fascia gutter system has a 0.55 thick Zinc Alum internal gutter. ie considered heavy duty. BUT it is in the sea spray zone so cannot be used as salt oxidizes the Zinc and pits the steel until failure.
The gutter is two stories high. There are no trees nearby so previous owners would have no reason to climb a ladder to inspect or to clean gutters. 'Out of sight out of mind'. From the outside the colour steel Fascia is in good condition so why even think 'what's inside'?
The new owner has noticed two rooms have wet carpets. Constantly. In heavy rain it gets worse but it never dries out. To them its leaking without rain.
Yes it was. The gutters have not been set with the correct fall to drain water to the down pipes. Water is ponding. Salts are rusting. Gutter pitted and holed so the ponding water slowly drips onto the soffits. The two rooms have no soffits so water leaks straight into the wall framing. The remainder of the house has soffits.
On inspection four more areas of pitting were discovered and had wet soffits despite no rain for a few days. Two had mould.
Invasive tests were positive.
The owner contacted us to get overflows installed and conduct Invasive tests in case they had serious problems. The house as built in approx 2000 at the height of the UTKD era.
The builders report included this global statement regarding weathertightness. 'Without invasive testing ie (cutting holes in the cladding) it is not possible to determine the full weather tightness of a building'.
The owner did his research and discovered Moisture Detection who use Mdu Probes for invasive testing. No cladding would be ruined. Tests are done from the inside. Five tests confirmed good news. The framing had been treated with boron to a level higher than the current H1.2 so is effective against decay. All samples extracted were in good condition.
The gutter can safely be replaced or repaired without fear of consequential damage to the framing. Overflows would not help this time. Invasive Testing news is not always bad.
Issue is when products age they must be designed to deal with the consequences until repaired.
Basic engineering 101. External gutters rust as well. The difference is when they rust rainwater leaks out the bottom safely into the garden. But not so with Taylor Fascia.
This recent purchasers builders report to their credit noticed rust in the gutter and recommended a rust primer and paint. It would accordingly last another 10 years. Rust primer does not fix rust pitting that have broken through.
What is the issue?
This Taylor Fascia gutter system has a 0.55 thick Zinc Alum internal gutter. ie considered heavy duty. BUT it is in the sea spray zone so cannot be used as salt oxidizes the Zinc and pits the steel until failure.
The gutter is two stories high. There are no trees nearby so previous owners would have no reason to climb a ladder to inspect or to clean gutters. 'Out of sight out of mind'. From the outside the colour steel Fascia is in good condition so why even think 'what's inside'?
The new owner has noticed two rooms have wet carpets. Constantly. In heavy rain it gets worse but it never dries out. To them its leaking without rain.
Yes it was. The gutters have not been set with the correct fall to drain water to the down pipes. Water is ponding. Salts are rusting. Gutter pitted and holed so the ponding water slowly drips onto the soffits. The two rooms have no soffits so water leaks straight into the wall framing. The remainder of the house has soffits.
On inspection four more areas of pitting were discovered and had wet soffits despite no rain for a few days. Two had mould.
Invasive tests were positive.
The owner contacted us to get overflows installed and conduct Invasive tests in case they had serious problems. The house as built in approx 2000 at the height of the UTKD era.
The builders report included this global statement regarding weathertightness. 'Without invasive testing ie (cutting holes in the cladding) it is not possible to determine the full weather tightness of a building'.
The owner did his research and discovered Moisture Detection who use Mdu Probes for invasive testing. No cladding would be ruined. Tests are done from the inside. Five tests confirmed good news. The framing had been treated with boron to a level higher than the current H1.2 so is effective against decay. All samples extracted were in good condition.
The gutter can safely be replaced or repaired without fear of consequential damage to the framing. Overflows would not help this time. Invasive Testing news is not always bad.
Taylor Fascia poor installation
Taylor Fascia incorrectly set out
Negative soffit
This Taylor fascia has been set against the framing so when the cladding was installed it did not fit behind it so water can run down the metal casing and in behind the cladding.
Why blame Taylor then? Isn't it more to do with cramping more homes on limited size sections than a defective gutter? And who left the hole in the corner?
The point is the wall framing is now decayed. How is it to be fixed? It is nonsense to simply replace the decayed framing. No council will allow this to be rebuilt as is as it cannot ever work.
I have included it in Taylor issues as the Taylor is buried into the cladding.
Negative soffit
This Taylor fascia has been set against the framing so when the cladding was installed it did not fit behind it so water can run down the metal casing and in behind the cladding.
Why blame Taylor then? Isn't it more to do with cramping more homes on limited size sections than a defective gutter? And who left the hole in the corner?
The point is the wall framing is now decayed. How is it to be fixed? It is nonsense to simply replace the decayed framing. No council will allow this to be rebuilt as is as it cannot ever work.
I have included it in Taylor issues as the Taylor is buried into the cladding.
Taylor Fascia soffit broken away from leakage
Taylor Fascia Soffit has collapsed.
This Taylor Fascia system has been poorly installed and instead of rain water overflowing safely into the garden it has overflowed at every rain onto the Hardies soffit board until it became brittle and collapsed.
The owner has repeatedly sprayed Exit Mould but it comes back within a few months.
Look for this on your home. By accident the breakout has reduced the water leakage into the two bedrooms below as some of the overflowing rain water dropped into the garden.
This is a direct result of a defective installation and defective design. The expected failure leaked onto the soffit and into walls.
This Taylor Fascia system has been poorly installed and instead of rain water overflowing safely into the garden it has overflowed at every rain onto the Hardies soffit board until it became brittle and collapsed.
The owner has repeatedly sprayed Exit Mould but it comes back within a few months.
Look for this on your home. By accident the breakout has reduced the water leakage into the two bedrooms below as some of the overflowing rain water dropped into the garden.
This is a direct result of a defective installation and defective design. The expected failure leaked onto the soffit and into walls.
Taylor Fascia stop end defect
Taylor Fascia defective connection to wall
No stop end to divert rainwater from the apron into the gutter
Taylor Fascia incorrectly set up for cladding thickness so trim buried into the plaster.
Taylor Fascia gutter not secured back to trim.
Three issues on top of the defect Taylor Fascia overflow onto soffits and into walls. What the three extra defects do is worsen the incidence and amount of water getting into walls.
A previous owner must have been alerted to the leaks as someone has slipped a fake stop end under the apron and attempted to divert rain water to the gutter. But the fake stop end was not slipped up behind the cladding so water still gets in.
The Taylor Fascia connects to 40mm Insulclad with 5mm of plaster. Although the Taylor Fascia system should never have been allowed to be used it should have been set out 50mm and have a stop end to divert rainwater into the gutter and to protect against weather behind the end. No and No.
The gutter was poorly fitted and has opened up along the top which allows rainwater onto the soffits.
The result of this poor Taylor Fascia installation
The Insulclad plaster has cracked due to continual wetting which has reduced the cementitious material to brittle dust which has cracked and become loose.
The framing below has decayed and requires removal.
Expensive for the current owner. Obviously this has been slowly happening since construction 25 years ago so has passed through several owners. Are you the unlucky one?
In the meantime to keep the rooms healthy a diverter flashing and cap has been installed and RotStop injected to sterilize the walls. This has enabled the current owner to delay the bigger expensive decisions.
No stop end to divert rainwater from the apron into the gutter
Taylor Fascia incorrectly set up for cladding thickness so trim buried into the plaster.
Taylor Fascia gutter not secured back to trim.
Three issues on top of the defect Taylor Fascia overflow onto soffits and into walls. What the three extra defects do is worsen the incidence and amount of water getting into walls.
A previous owner must have been alerted to the leaks as someone has slipped a fake stop end under the apron and attempted to divert rain water to the gutter. But the fake stop end was not slipped up behind the cladding so water still gets in.
The Taylor Fascia connects to 40mm Insulclad with 5mm of plaster. Although the Taylor Fascia system should never have been allowed to be used it should have been set out 50mm and have a stop end to divert rainwater into the gutter and to protect against weather behind the end. No and No.
The gutter was poorly fitted and has opened up along the top which allows rainwater onto the soffits.
The result of this poor Taylor Fascia installation
The Insulclad plaster has cracked due to continual wetting which has reduced the cementitious material to brittle dust which has cracked and become loose.
The framing below has decayed and requires removal.
Expensive for the current owner. Obviously this has been slowly happening since construction 25 years ago so has passed through several owners. Are you the unlucky one?
In the meantime to keep the rooms healthy a diverter flashing and cap has been installed and RotStop injected to sterilize the walls. This has enabled the current owner to delay the bigger expensive decisions.
Taylor Fascia stop end
Taylor Fascia defective connection to wall.
No stop end to Taylor Fascia has caused wall framing to decay.
Typical completed Taylor Fascia installation to plaster wall. The issue is the Hardibacker and Stucco is 30mm thick so the apron flashing needed to be turned out to divert rain water into the gutter. The Taylor Fascia was incorrectly set up at installation and fitted hard up to the framing. It needed to be shorter so it could be flashed properly. But as it penetrates the Stucco it cannot be effectively sealed.
This detail would have leaked from day one of construction.
But if the owner had Mdu Probes they would have known the first rain they had. Then they could have claimed and got it fixed. Now they are out of time and the consequence has grown to all the framing below the two rooms has decayed. This is over a tiled bathroom and extensive entrance way so will be very disruptive and costly. The owners also have to deal with two more of these also built wrong.
Moral here is to undertake Invasive Testing and install monitoring now.
If any of the owners had installed monitoring they would have been alerted to the problem and got the builder back then and there. Or reduced the purchase price to cover the cost of repairs. Ongoing monitoring would have proven it was corrected or not.
Why wait 22 years before you pluck up the courage to find out.
This came to us as a purchasers builders report recommended invasive testing. Lucky they did otherwise they may be bleeding by now. At least this owner purchased with knowledge. But the previous owner lost a bundle here.
No stop end to Taylor Fascia has caused wall framing to decay.
Typical completed Taylor Fascia installation to plaster wall. The issue is the Hardibacker and Stucco is 30mm thick so the apron flashing needed to be turned out to divert rain water into the gutter. The Taylor Fascia was incorrectly set up at installation and fitted hard up to the framing. It needed to be shorter so it could be flashed properly. But as it penetrates the Stucco it cannot be effectively sealed.
This detail would have leaked from day one of construction.
But if the owner had Mdu Probes they would have known the first rain they had. Then they could have claimed and got it fixed. Now they are out of time and the consequence has grown to all the framing below the two rooms has decayed. This is over a tiled bathroom and extensive entrance way so will be very disruptive and costly. The owners also have to deal with two more of these also built wrong.
Moral here is to undertake Invasive Testing and install monitoring now.
If any of the owners had installed monitoring they would have been alerted to the problem and got the builder back then and there. Or reduced the purchase price to cover the cost of repairs. Ongoing monitoring would have proven it was corrected or not.
Why wait 22 years before you pluck up the courage to find out.
This came to us as a purchasers builders report recommended invasive testing. Lucky they did otherwise they may be bleeding by now. At least this owner purchased with knowledge. But the previous owner lost a bundle here.
Taylor Fascia valley issue and pooling
Taylor Fascia issues
Water ponding
Valley failure
Poor workmanship
This could be what is protecting your million dollar home. The gutter is falling away from the outlet with water ponding 20mm deep. The home is close to the sea and beginning to rust. Valley has been cut into the back of the gutter lowering the threshold for overflows. Underlay is short. Taylor Fascia internal corner poorly formed. Valley is partially blocked which allows water to overflow along its length.
Placing any reliance on this sort of detail is miss-founded. These defects were only discovered when the owner replaced the kitchen and found the wall framing had decayed. Kitchens hide leaks as you have no access to them.
Install probes now. At least you will find out what is going on so you can make informed decisions.
Water ponding
Valley failure
Poor workmanship
This could be what is protecting your million dollar home. The gutter is falling away from the outlet with water ponding 20mm deep. The home is close to the sea and beginning to rust. Valley has been cut into the back of the gutter lowering the threshold for overflows. Underlay is short. Taylor Fascia internal corner poorly formed. Valley is partially blocked which allows water to overflow along its length.
Placing any reliance on this sort of detail is miss-founded. These defects were only discovered when the owner replaced the kitchen and found the wall framing had decayed. Kitchens hide leaks as you have no access to them.
Install probes now. At least you will find out what is going on so you can make informed decisions.
Taylor Fascia gutter leaks:
General note: This webpage shows some common deficiencies with Taylor and Klass style Fascia gutters.
Taylor Fascia (and Klass Fascia) are responsible for unexplained leaks coming out ceiling down lights and water dribbling out of windows. Even with large soffits. The defect is the Taylor and Klass fascia design puts the gutter on top of the soffit so any defect leaks into the building. In heavy rain, or when gutters are blocked, or installed poorly, or age, water overflows and runs onto the soffits (if there are any), gets into walls and wets them. What you see coming out the down lights or windows is but a small part of the full wetting inside the walls.
Wet walls can wet the carpet, GIB and insulation. You may even see these immediately after rain.
The bigger concern which could end up costing a lot of money is wet walls could mean the framing is decaying. If your home was built with H1 timber or Kiln Dried framing it won't have resistance to decay.
Moulds could also be growing inside the walls. The insulation could also be wet resulting in colder rooms. Many homes we visit have decay at the ends of window sill liners, swollen skirting boards and damaged carpet. GIB linings may be wet and soft.
Excessive mould can develop into health issues especially those with immune deficiencies and asthma.
Explaining some of the typical defects
I include some photos and explanations showing defects with Taylor and Klass style Fascia. Keep an open mind as most Taylor Fascia installations have more than one defect. If you have experience with different defects please send your story so I can add them to the list so everyone gets the message.
Has the Taylor Fascia already caused damage to your home.
Before we go any further I want to drum in this message. Your first consideration must be: 'has the building been damaged'.
You may have only just discovered your Taylor Fascia is defective. Your home may already be 20 years old so could have been leaking all that time. Framing hidden inside the walls could already be decayed.
You may have already tried some things which have not worked. Now you are searching for better advice. The first step is to get Invasive Tests done to check the condition of the timber framing hidden inside the walls.
We install moisture probes. See www.moisturedetection.co.nz/services/moisture-probe-system/. The Invasive Testing will determine whether work is required to fix the flooring, framing, insulation, GIB and window liners.
Invasive testing will also find out whether you are lucky and the framing is properly treated and not decayed. This has a big bearing on what repair options you need to consider to keep your home safe and healthy. RotStop treatment can be added to kill decay and prevent further damage.
Is the Taylor Fascia actually worth repairing?
The adage is 'the only good Taylor Fascia is the one on the trailer going to the tip'. If the Taylor is rusting or has too many defects and approaching the end of its life it may be best to cut it loose. Spending good money on something beyond repair is not good planning. So once you have the invasive test results and have confidence in the condition of your house you can then start investigating how wrong is the Taylor Fascia gutter system. Repair or replace. Its your option. It will depend on what the best cost benefit is for you. If you are to replace it install an external gutter.
Many Taylor can be remedied with overflows, riveting the gutter, tidying up corners, resetting the gable under flashings and installing stop ends.
Monitor afterwards.
Decisions made, repairs made, so now its time to monitor. The only good repair is a successful one. Have the walls dried out? Has decay stopped? How will you know unless you installed moisture probes and have them monitored.
Its all too easy for a contractor to tell you 'she'll be right' but that is the oldest saying in the book. This time you must know and must have proof. Probes don't lie.
Good planning. following processes, providing specifications and warranties have little bearing on what actually happens during heavy rain and as your building ages. Builders are liable for 10 years. But what are they liable for if they don't use the probes? You won't know one way or the other even with the warranty in your hand.
You got to this position because the building industry does not monitor itself. Your problem is the consequence. Ask yourself 'the Taylor system is so blatantly defective how the hell did it get accepted by builders in the first place'.
Same question should be asked about H1 and UTKD. They certainly have no place in external walls of homes. Give yourself a leg up and get the tools to monitor so you can prove to yourself that your walls are no longer getting wet by Taylor Fascia.
Otherwise next rain all you'll be thinking 'is it getting in again'.
General note: This webpage shows some common deficiencies with Taylor and Klass style Fascia gutters.
Taylor Fascia (and Klass Fascia) are responsible for unexplained leaks coming out ceiling down lights and water dribbling out of windows. Even with large soffits. The defect is the Taylor and Klass fascia design puts the gutter on top of the soffit so any defect leaks into the building. In heavy rain, or when gutters are blocked, or installed poorly, or age, water overflows and runs onto the soffits (if there are any), gets into walls and wets them. What you see coming out the down lights or windows is but a small part of the full wetting inside the walls.
Wet walls can wet the carpet, GIB and insulation. You may even see these immediately after rain.
The bigger concern which could end up costing a lot of money is wet walls could mean the framing is decaying. If your home was built with H1 timber or Kiln Dried framing it won't have resistance to decay.
Moulds could also be growing inside the walls. The insulation could also be wet resulting in colder rooms. Many homes we visit have decay at the ends of window sill liners, swollen skirting boards and damaged carpet. GIB linings may be wet and soft.
Excessive mould can develop into health issues especially those with immune deficiencies and asthma.
Explaining some of the typical defects
I include some photos and explanations showing defects with Taylor and Klass style Fascia. Keep an open mind as most Taylor Fascia installations have more than one defect. If you have experience with different defects please send your story so I can add them to the list so everyone gets the message.
Has the Taylor Fascia already caused damage to your home.
Before we go any further I want to drum in this message. Your first consideration must be: 'has the building been damaged'.
You may have only just discovered your Taylor Fascia is defective. Your home may already be 20 years old so could have been leaking all that time. Framing hidden inside the walls could already be decayed.
You may have already tried some things which have not worked. Now you are searching for better advice. The first step is to get Invasive Tests done to check the condition of the timber framing hidden inside the walls.
We install moisture probes. See www.moisturedetection.co.nz/services/moisture-probe-system/. The Invasive Testing will determine whether work is required to fix the flooring, framing, insulation, GIB and window liners.
Invasive testing will also find out whether you are lucky and the framing is properly treated and not decayed. This has a big bearing on what repair options you need to consider to keep your home safe and healthy. RotStop treatment can be added to kill decay and prevent further damage.
Is the Taylor Fascia actually worth repairing?
The adage is 'the only good Taylor Fascia is the one on the trailer going to the tip'. If the Taylor is rusting or has too many defects and approaching the end of its life it may be best to cut it loose. Spending good money on something beyond repair is not good planning. So once you have the invasive test results and have confidence in the condition of your house you can then start investigating how wrong is the Taylor Fascia gutter system. Repair or replace. Its your option. It will depend on what the best cost benefit is for you. If you are to replace it install an external gutter.
Many Taylor can be remedied with overflows, riveting the gutter, tidying up corners, resetting the gable under flashings and installing stop ends.
Monitor afterwards.
Decisions made, repairs made, so now its time to monitor. The only good repair is a successful one. Have the walls dried out? Has decay stopped? How will you know unless you installed moisture probes and have them monitored.
Its all too easy for a contractor to tell you 'she'll be right' but that is the oldest saying in the book. This time you must know and must have proof. Probes don't lie.
Good planning. following processes, providing specifications and warranties have little bearing on what actually happens during heavy rain and as your building ages. Builders are liable for 10 years. But what are they liable for if they don't use the probes? You won't know one way or the other even with the warranty in your hand.
You got to this position because the building industry does not monitor itself. Your problem is the consequence. Ask yourself 'the Taylor system is so blatantly defective how the hell did it get accepted by builders in the first place'.
Same question should be asked about H1 and UTKD. They certainly have no place in external walls of homes. Give yourself a leg up and get the tools to monitor so you can prove to yourself that your walls are no longer getting wet by Taylor Fascia.
Otherwise next rain all you'll be thinking 'is it getting in again'.
Taylor Fascia does not comply with the building code
Never did, never will. Emphatic no.
The building regulations are based on performance codes. Weathertightness is based on External Moisture E2.3.2.
E2.3.2 Roofs and exterior walls shall prevent the penetration of water that could cause undue dampness, or damage to building elements.
The operative word is 'COULD'.
Compliance is meant to mean roofs and exterior walls shall be built so they could not leak.
Councils should have rejected building consents that included Taylor and Klass because they have at least 15 defects why they 'could' leak and drop water onto soffits and into walls to wet framing, insulation and cause decay, rust, mould loss of insulation, damage to GIB, flooring, skirtings and carpets.
This is another of the building industries big 'Oops' moments. No matter to them as after 10 years no-one can claim. Scott free so to speak.
Your problem to deal with this legacy. Added to this is framing that decays, underlay sagging, tiles leaking in wind driven rain, inadequate down pipes, inadequate valleys and gable under flashings.
You are not alone. Industry claims Taylor and Klass has been installed on about 200,000 homes without any testing of any sort. Council does not want to talk about the Elephant in the room. Neither does BRANZ or the Government. Yet together they are the regulators and wrote the building code using the word 'could'.
They have no interest in monitoring or Invasive testing as they know what trouble you will find. But you need to so you know what must be done.
Imagine if Taylor was Toyota, or Nissan, or Honda, or any reputable manufacturer. They would have recalled them and upgraded them into external gutters.
If you are thinking of recladding this is one of the first products that goes into the skip bin. Not the only one I may add.
Photographs of common defects
Never did, never will. Emphatic no.
The building regulations are based on performance codes. Weathertightness is based on External Moisture E2.3.2.
E2.3.2 Roofs and exterior walls shall prevent the penetration of water that could cause undue dampness, or damage to building elements.
The operative word is 'COULD'.
Compliance is meant to mean roofs and exterior walls shall be built so they could not leak.
Councils should have rejected building consents that included Taylor and Klass because they have at least 15 defects why they 'could' leak and drop water onto soffits and into walls to wet framing, insulation and cause decay, rust, mould loss of insulation, damage to GIB, flooring, skirtings and carpets.
This is another of the building industries big 'Oops' moments. No matter to them as after 10 years no-one can claim. Scott free so to speak.
Your problem to deal with this legacy. Added to this is framing that decays, underlay sagging, tiles leaking in wind driven rain, inadequate down pipes, inadequate valleys and gable under flashings.
You are not alone. Industry claims Taylor and Klass has been installed on about 200,000 homes without any testing of any sort. Council does not want to talk about the Elephant in the room. Neither does BRANZ or the Government. Yet together they are the regulators and wrote the building code using the word 'could'.
They have no interest in monitoring or Invasive testing as they know what trouble you will find. But you need to so you know what must be done.
Imagine if Taylor was Toyota, or Nissan, or Honda, or any reputable manufacturer. They would have recalled them and upgraded them into external gutters.
If you are thinking of recladding this is one of the first products that goes into the skip bin. Not the only one I may add.
Photographs of common defects
Taylor Fascia Guttering System More Defects Folder 001
Taylor Fascia type systems introduced an overflow system as early as the later 1980's. They knew they had a problem with overflowing onto soffits and into walls so created these rectangular outlets, fitted into the soffits for new installs and to retro-fit when owners complained.
We have found these are defective and do not solve the overflow problem.
We have found these are defective and do not solve the overflow problem.
010
Close up showing inside the Taylor type overflow. It is made from PVC, has 20mm sides with folded flaps to locate it and the back is turned up to close off the end.
They are fitted in through the back and sit in place.
They are fitted in through the back and sit in place.
020
The gutter liner is then cut to a depth to promote overflowing into the Taylor Type overflow rather than over the gutter and onto the soffit.
This one has been created by cutting two slots and folding the liner into the gutter. The depth of the cut is good. Water will certainly overflow here first. Is this enough for long lengths of gutters?
This one has been created by cutting two slots and folding the liner into the gutter. The depth of the cut is good. Water will certainly overflow here first. Is this enough for long lengths of gutters?
030
With tiles slipped back this overflow has been cut the same but bent out so it wouldn't obstruct the gutter and cause blockages.
Incidentally its full of leaves and blocked anyway. This would not be noticed by the gutter cleaner as the tiles cover it from view.
Incidentally its full of leaves and blocked anyway. This would not be noticed by the gutter cleaner as the tiles cover it from view.
050
Another variation this time the cut is in the front of the gutter. It has screws holding the overflow in place. This was done at gutter installation.
060 20230912_162409
Cross section of Taylor type system overflow arrangement showing overflow slot to direct rainwater. The overflowing water runs out the slot in the liner then clings to the gutter, falls down by gravity, then runs sideways underneath the gutter dropping when the weight of the water is greater than its surface tension but by that time is dropping off and spraying water sideways onto the soffit and into the Taylor front channel. We accept water does run out the overflow outlet but because the gutter is not sealed to the overflow a lot of water is sucked along and drops onto the soffit and into the channel.
This water then finds its way onto the soffit and into walls or is directed in the channel into walls.
This water then finds its way onto the soffit and into walls or is directed in the channel into walls.
070
Another overflow outlet is a Vee cut out of the back of the gutter liner. This one has been taped up probably because someone has worked out that water running out the Vee clings to the gutter - like pouring water from a glass runs down the glass, not like a tea pot with a spout.
On this home the overflows have been completely disabled.
From the underneath looking up one would assume the overflows were operational.
On this home the overflows have been completely disabled.
From the underneath looking up one would assume the overflows were operational.
072
In this overflow someone has cut more of the gutter liner away to increase the size of the overflow to remove more water from the too fill gutter. The wider the spout the more water clings to the gutter and misses the overflow. This overflow does not stop water wetting the soffit (and entering walls) or filling up the front channel.
After heavy rain you can scan the soffits around the overflows and plot the wetting.
After heavy rain you can scan the soffits around the overflows and plot the wetting.
120 20230912_134259 _SC_
This is an early model Taylor type system - the bottom channel has no holes or slots. The overflowing has caused the soffit board to be wetted to an extent it has rotted away.
The corner miter of the Taylor type casing also lets water in.
The corner miter of the Taylor type casing also lets water in.
130
The leaking into the house becomes more problematic when the soffits are smaller. In this case the soffit is beginning to rot away by the top weatherboard. Note no holes along the channel of the Taylor type fascia casing
131
With soffit removed can see the underside of the gutter. The galvanized section on the right is the brackets securing the gutter system. The white is the gutter liner. The grey and lower green is the Taylor casing which has a rebate to hold an edge of soffit board and then the channel beyond.
140
This is another version of the Taylor type casing with holes spaced about 400mm centers. This is an early attempt by the designers to acknowledge they have a problem and must somehow drain the channel. Our testing shows these holes to be too small and more are required. What does not drain out flows along to the ends of the gutter and directly into the walls.
300
This shows the Taylor type gutter penetrating the weatherboard.
The mottled apron flashing is directing water into the wall, below that the building paper is exposed - at the lowest part of the gutter - the sloped end cap - so water overflows here and the channel in the bottom of the Taylor type system is penetrating the weatherboard allowing water to track straight into the wall and wet framing.
The last metal tile has a turn up which is above the end cap so can leak off the end in behind and into the wall.
The mottled apron flashing is directing water into the wall, below that the building paper is exposed - at the lowest part of the gutter - the sloped end cap - so water overflows here and the channel in the bottom of the Taylor type system is penetrating the weatherboard allowing water to track straight into the wall and wet framing.
The last metal tile has a turn up which is above the end cap so can leak off the end in behind and into the wall.
401
Taylor type wall termination similar to the weatherboard one. Lead apron is not turned up, hole above the gutter end cap penetrating the plaster unsealed and the channel directs water straight into the wall.
405
Bedroom wall opened up with GIB linings removed showing the Taylor type fascia system penetrating an EIFS Insulclad external wall cladding system. The Taylor channel has been directing water straight into the wall since 1987 when it was built.
See following images for the damage caused.
See following images for the damage caused.
406
The house is 35 years old. The current owner after 25 years living in the house noticed a small hole appearing in the skirting board the vacuum cleaner had got stuck in. This lead to invasive testing and the discovery of the Taylor type gutter channel letting water in. The result is framing decayed, flooring gone and boundary joist decayed.
410
The leak had rotted the framing - it is noted the construction is pre 1988 when H1 framing was treated to 0.8%BAE (twice current standard) which only decays after extended leaking that leaches out the boron until decay can establish. But the benefit of the boron is leaching only occurs to the very wet timber so nearby framing was not decayed after 36 years.
NOTE: If this was H1 from 1992 or UTKD framing the entire wall would be decayed and the building structurally damaged in a much shorter time eg 1-2 years.
Always replace framing with H3.2 and always install monitoring systems to prove leakage is stopped.
NOTE: If this was H1 from 1992 or UTKD framing the entire wall would be decayed and the building structurally damaged in a much shorter time eg 1-2 years.
Always replace framing with H3.2 and always install monitoring systems to prove leakage is stopped.
500
This gutter has been leaking. The response was to install a mock stop end - the upturned end below the tiles. This has not been effective as the leaking is coming from the channel and the Taylor type casing penetrating the cladding.
More Taylor Fascia defects to deal with.
Not only do owners have to deal with the overflowing Taylor Fascia type gutters but recent experiments by us show that the Taylor Fascia overflows they installed to stop overflowing are not cutting the mustard.
They're fancy, look good but have a lot of critics. Deservedly so. Changing from the tried and true external gutters that we have all used safely forever into modern concealed gutters that overflow into our homes could only have one outcome - disaster for home owners and expense for insurance companies.
Taylor realised this way back in the the 1980's immediately after patents so to speak. Taylor's solution was not to change back but to fit overflows. Anyone complaining about leaks within liability periods got them retrofitted for free.
Overflowing gutters in 1980's homes didn't mean too much as these homes had properly treated timber so insurers paid to remove GIB, dry walls and put them back together. Not much damage. Timber survived - for a while. Now things are very different. Bigger roofs, heavier and more frequent downpours, less down pipes, flashings have been omitted and poorly treated framing which decays framing, insulation now goes mouldy, GIB - the new bracing falls apart, chipboard flooring swells, kitchen cabinets swell - the list goes on. All need replacing.
Taylor introduced holes along the bottom of the casing channel once they realised the soffit channel collected water during the overflows which poured water into walls. But holes didn't work. Taylor then changed these holes to slots to increase drainage. Change after change. But these don't work properly, water still drops onto soffits and still they leak into walls.
Mazda, Toyota, Honda and other reputable companies protect there brand by recalling cars with defects that get missed - goodwill. Taylor and their competing copies have offered up overflows as the solution. But they still leak. Now what?
Have a look at some of these photos.
Not only do owners have to deal with the overflowing Taylor Fascia type gutters but recent experiments by us show that the Taylor Fascia overflows they installed to stop overflowing are not cutting the mustard.
They're fancy, look good but have a lot of critics. Deservedly so. Changing from the tried and true external gutters that we have all used safely forever into modern concealed gutters that overflow into our homes could only have one outcome - disaster for home owners and expense for insurance companies.
Taylor realised this way back in the the 1980's immediately after patents so to speak. Taylor's solution was not to change back but to fit overflows. Anyone complaining about leaks within liability periods got them retrofitted for free.
Overflowing gutters in 1980's homes didn't mean too much as these homes had properly treated timber so insurers paid to remove GIB, dry walls and put them back together. Not much damage. Timber survived - for a while. Now things are very different. Bigger roofs, heavier and more frequent downpours, less down pipes, flashings have been omitted and poorly treated framing which decays framing, insulation now goes mouldy, GIB - the new bracing falls apart, chipboard flooring swells, kitchen cabinets swell - the list goes on. All need replacing.
Taylor introduced holes along the bottom of the casing channel once they realised the soffit channel collected water during the overflows which poured water into walls. But holes didn't work. Taylor then changed these holes to slots to increase drainage. Change after change. But these don't work properly, water still drops onto soffits and still they leak into walls.
Mazda, Toyota, Honda and other reputable companies protect there brand by recalling cars with defects that get missed - goodwill. Taylor and their competing copies have offered up overflows as the solution. But they still leak. Now what?
Have a look at some of these photos.
Taylor Fascia systems with water tanks Folder Taylor Fascia feeding Rainwater Tanks
Taylor Fascia set up with Siphon System Feeding Water Tanks
This country home setting shows two large water tanks for collecting rain water feed from the roof via a Taylor Fascia gutter system.
The main house is behind the trees to the right about 50m away. It is a large home. Both homesteads are built on the same level which sets the Taylor Fascia about 450mm above the rim of the water tanks.
Over the years they have suffered from numerous floods through the ceiling down lights and dripping windows. Roofers have installed about 20 over flows and extra down pipes which have all helped but not prevented 'the big rains' from getting inside.
What is happening is during rain events the tanks begin to fill. The tank level rises. The down pipes feeding the tanks are fully water tight right to the Taylor Gutter. They have to be or precious rain water is lost. The down pipes have no relief against blockages or back pressure. When full the right tank top white pipe runs off to an underground overflow drain which is near level for 100m to discharge into a creek. The exit pipe would be 400mm below the Taylor Fascia.
This means the down pipes have a resting water level at 400mm below the Taylor Fascia. Heavy rain then fills the gutters which flow into the down pipes which are already fill to the 400mm mark. Gravity does not allow the same flow rate as a normal 2.7m fall storm water systems provide. Result is water level rises and overflows mostly out the 20 overflows.
The roofers nearly got success however they miscalculated the Taylor Fascia on the far side of the house, with the furthest to travel have roof valley flashings which have been cut-out in the back of the gutters to feed the valley flashing.
Lowering the overflows again will assist but even then the shear volume of water and its back pressure all the way from the creek to the Taylor Fascia will never be 100% safe. The restrictions on gravity and flow rate means it will still overflow in heavy rain.
When the Taylor gutter has debris, moss, leaves and dirt blocking flow it will cause even more overflows into the ceilings.
Taylor Fascia is not suitable for siphon system water storage systems. Always make sure you use external gutter systems as any overflow is safely dropped into gardens and lawns.
Many owners are thinking Green at the moment and water conservation with storage tanks. Think twice if your gutters are Taylor Fascia and if you must specify overflows and have the tanks sunk into the ground so gravity works in your favour.
This country home setting shows two large water tanks for collecting rain water feed from the roof via a Taylor Fascia gutter system.
The main house is behind the trees to the right about 50m away. It is a large home. Both homesteads are built on the same level which sets the Taylor Fascia about 450mm above the rim of the water tanks.
Over the years they have suffered from numerous floods through the ceiling down lights and dripping windows. Roofers have installed about 20 over flows and extra down pipes which have all helped but not prevented 'the big rains' from getting inside.
What is happening is during rain events the tanks begin to fill. The tank level rises. The down pipes feeding the tanks are fully water tight right to the Taylor Gutter. They have to be or precious rain water is lost. The down pipes have no relief against blockages or back pressure. When full the right tank top white pipe runs off to an underground overflow drain which is near level for 100m to discharge into a creek. The exit pipe would be 400mm below the Taylor Fascia.
This means the down pipes have a resting water level at 400mm below the Taylor Fascia. Heavy rain then fills the gutters which flow into the down pipes which are already fill to the 400mm mark. Gravity does not allow the same flow rate as a normal 2.7m fall storm water systems provide. Result is water level rises and overflows mostly out the 20 overflows.
The roofers nearly got success however they miscalculated the Taylor Fascia on the far side of the house, with the furthest to travel have roof valley flashings which have been cut-out in the back of the gutters to feed the valley flashing.
Lowering the overflows again will assist but even then the shear volume of water and its back pressure all the way from the creek to the Taylor Fascia will never be 100% safe. The restrictions on gravity and flow rate means it will still overflow in heavy rain.
When the Taylor gutter has debris, moss, leaves and dirt blocking flow it will cause even more overflows into the ceilings.
Taylor Fascia is not suitable for siphon system water storage systems. Always make sure you use external gutter systems as any overflow is safely dropped into gardens and lawns.
Many owners are thinking Green at the moment and water conservation with storage tanks. Think twice if your gutters are Taylor Fascia and if you must specify overflows and have the tanks sunk into the ground so gravity works in your favour.